1 (edited by tavi 2012-01-09 22:32:19)

Topic: License terms update

I've bought iRedAdmin-Pro and additionally the lifetime upgrade. I've liked the idea that you provide the source code so it can be customized to fit our needs. Now you are saying that you are changing the license agreement and we have to renew the license in the new terms or we will loose the lifetime subscription. Also according to the new license you won't provide any source code anymore.

My questions are:

1. I don't understand how can we loose a lifetime upgrade we already paid for if we don't agree with some new terms ?
2. If someone still want to use a customized version of iRedAdmin-Pro will you provide any features/security patches for old sources after 01.08.2012?

Thank you,

Tavi

----

Spider Email Archiver: On-Premises, lightweight email archiving software developed by iRedMail team. Supports Amazon S3 compatible storage and custom branding.

2

Re: License terms update

Hi tavi,

So sorry about the confusion.

1) Lifetime license will always be active and valid. That means your lifetime license WON'T expire, you can always get FREE upgrade.
2) No. We will provide new release (without Python source code), so please always use the latest release.

May i know what customization you have?

To be clear, source code of HTML templates, CSS, JavaScript files are still available, just Python source code is compiled.

3

Re: License terms update

hi Zhang,

maybe you can explain a bit more what files are affected by this change.

Closed source means - we can not inspect the content sad

Our Reaction to this: Not knowing if there might be some sec-issues we would like to block access to these files/directories exept from dedicated admin-machines: Please provide a list of "closed" files

Sorry - but the increased price and also that change in therms is a show-stopper for future customers hmm

Hopefully you will realize that this also will make patching rather ugly as this way we can not just apply a simple diff ...

Greetings

Mike

4

Re: License terms update

Hi ZhangHuangbin,

Thank you for your reply.

1. I am sorry I misunderstood you about the renew policy.

2. We are not using the stock iredmail solution. We are using our own freebsd compilation based on some of your configuration files and ldap schema so we had to adapt iredadmin-pro.

I this situation we have to see what solution to adopt.

Thank you,

Tavi

5

Re: License terms update

Hello,
This license change troubles me.

1: the transition from open source to closed source
We already had an email based on the same open source components (postfix, clamav, amavis, dovecot, openldap, ...). We chose to drive all with iredmail and iredadmin because he is open source and we were able to change it. That for adapt the LDAP schema and add internal features to iredmail permissions to manage other programs associated with the same accounts.

Iredmail was chosen compared to the open source solutions like Zimbra Vmware which is based on open source but on which we can not change.

Back to the closed source is not an option for us.


2: I want to know what are your reasons for this change of license?

3: Do you not think of a intermediate solution.
Leave the current licenses and open source with their associated prices and make another license with a lower price with the binary?
That sounds like a good alternative.

We opted for an annual license to test our adaptations necessary in iredmail. Now that everything is good, we thought unlimited license to renew but we clearly demotivated by your annonce. We need to have a long-term visibility. Depending on your answers we'll see what we do.

A tip, do not enter the game of fake open source: open source components locked by the interfaces and how it works (Model VMware Zimbra), many people do not want this model.

Thank you in advance for your answers and clarifications.

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Re: License terms update

"1) Lifetime license will always be lifetime license. That means your lifetime license WON'T expire, you can always get FREE upgrade."

--- > FREE upgrade with closed source ?

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Re: License terms update

kn wrote:

"1) Lifetime license will always be lifetime license. That means your lifetime license WON'T expire, you can always get FREE upgrade."

--- > FREE upgrade with closed source ?

Yes.

I did't realize there will be so many feedback about these two  license terms update, because:
- i just received few patches from customers, since Nov 2009. Maybe less than 5 patches, as i can remember.
- No one told me he/she modified source code to fit certain need.

I have to apologize that we didn't build a great community and customer relationship, we didn't get enough customer feedback before announced this license term update. But i'm glad you're sharing honest opinions.

Another side is less license renew payments. This [probably] can be improved by disableing access to admin panel and force customers to renew the license AFTER license expired. This is easier to be achieved with closed source.

That's why we choose to close source code. Files will be compiled to binary are:
- controllers/* (all files end with '.py')
- libs/*  (all files end with '.py')

Another thing i'd like to clear: iRedAdmin has dual licenses.
- iRedAdmin open source edition is released under GPL v2. Same as. iRedMail.
- iRedAdmin-Pro is NOT released under GPL or similar license. There's no term to force open source, but we choose to provide source code to customers.

I'm still considering about this license term update issue, please don't hesitate to share with us your honest opinions.

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Re: License terms update

interesting!

if you opt disabling access to admin panel (yearly license), what about lifetime license?

in my honest opinion you would need to have two releases:

1 - - -> yearly license customers that will force renewal after expiry.
2 - - -> lifetime license customers that will work lifetime.

?

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Re: License terms update

Hi kn,

Actually, it now works the same way as you described. There's no restrict on lifetime license.

Maybe it is a good idea to continue providing source code for lifetime license, but provide binary code for one-year license?

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Re: License terms update

i am a lifetime customer, so no renewal worries or whatsoever.. Can i still have the source on 2nd August 2012?

11 (edited by tavi 2012-01-10 04:55:53)

Re: License terms update

Dear ZhangHuangbin,

My honest opinion is that this project will loose in the long term if you close source it. I believe that people are buying admin-pro  because iRedMail is (was) a cheap open source alternative (a very good one - I want to congratulate you for the work you've done). Probably, a lot of us, customers, are computer specialists (more or less) who don't have the time needed to do and maintain a project like this but have enough knowledge to choose and maintain an open source mail solution. If you close source it sooner or later we will abandon this project.

I strongly believe that the solution to win more lifetime customers is to actively maintain the project and add new features and not to close it and put an expiration date. If you still believe that closing the source is a better alternative for you then at least give the source to the ones that already bought the lifetime subscription and don't need an expiration date to get convinced.

Thank you.

Hoping that you will find the best solution for both sides,

Tavi

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Re: License terms update

kn wrote:

i am a lifetime customer, so no renewal worries or whatsoever.. Can i still have the source on 2nd August 2012?

Of course yes.

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Re: License terms update

ZhangHuangbin wrote:
kn wrote:

i am a lifetime customer, so no renewal worries or whatsoever.. Can i still have the source on 2nd August 2012?

Of course yes.

On behalf of all lifetime subscription members I want to thank you for this decision smile.

Tavi

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Re: License terms update

I think I've missed your email regarding the closure of the source code.

We do change some settings in libs/setting.py like hashed maildir (False) and ldap_default_password_scheme (PLAIN).

Will we be able to change these settings.

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Re: License terms update

Oops, my mistake, forgot to mention this file.

libs/settings.py will be always available as Python source file, so that customer can change settings in this file.

The differences between settings.ini and libs/settings.py are:

  • settings.ini stores basic configurations, such as email address of webmaster, MySQL/LDAP server address, bind username/password and some other very basic settings. All customers will touch it to setup iRedAdmin.

  • libs/settings.py stores addition, or let's say, advanced settings. Most customers won't need to change settings in this file.

The reason why we create addition file (libs/settings.py) to store configurations is:

  • Make basic setup process simple (settings.ini). Customer doesn't need to know too many configuration settings.

  • It's always available (libs/settings.py) if customer want some advanced adjustments.

Starts with iRedAdmin-Pro-LDAP-1.6.3 and iRedAdmin-Pro-MySQL-1.3.1, customers are recommended to  add settings which you want to modify in libs/settings.py to a new file: libs/settings_local.py. So that you don't need to sync settings in libs/settings.py after next upgrade.

For example, timezone is set to 'GMT' by default in libs/settings.py like below:

LOCAL_TIMEZONE = 'GMT'

If you want to change it to, for example, 'GMT +8', you are recommended to leave "LOCAL_TIMEZONE = 'GMT'" in libs/settings.py, but create file libs/settings_local.py, and add same setting in it like below:

LOCAL_TIMEZONE = 'GMT+8'

Of course you should set correct file owner (iredadmin:iredadmin) and permission (0555) for file libs/settings_local.py.

Hope it helps.

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Re: License terms update

Hi Zhang,

For someone like me, a 'non IT professional' who is nonetheless sufficiently technically minded to want to run his own mail server, but is stretching a bit to put it together himself iredmail/iredadmin is perfect.

I registered 'pro' because I felt you deserved recognition beyond 'thank you' for your efforts.  This is after all quite a bit of work to set up.

The new licence terms will do several things;

1) It will raise the barrier to entry.  Pro is still a good solution, but it is a less obvious win against the opposition now.
2) It will 'encourage' renewals for those registering after 1/2/2011
3) It will reduce goodwill amongst your existing customers, and probably encourage a switch to 'non pro' - for some of us the choice to move to 'pro' was to say thank you rather than a massive need to have fine grained control.

Personally, losing access to aliases would be a nuisance - but I could do that manually if absolutely necessary.

So whilst I sympathise with your problem, I don't think the solution is to change the licence terms.  I just spent some time on the website looking for my initial purchase date to see when I was going to have to choose, and in the end had to look in my email inbox to find the receipt - I am sure I am just looking in the wrong place, but it is not trivial for me to find my 'purchase page', and buy additional options, support or upgrade options - I eventually found the 'buy now' button on admin panel, and found the pricing, but that stuff needs to be really easy to find for the non regular visitor.  Perhaps buttons within iredadmin (both versions) to purchase support and upgrade to pro/lifetime/next year - make buying easy and people will buy.  Make buying hard, and people won't.

Apple may not be the originator of almost any of the 'tech revolutions' they are given credit for, but they have proved that if you make buying something easier than stealing it then people will buy it (music in their case).  Your market place is primarily businesses, the cost is an issue, but it is not a show stopper.  Make buying the product as easy as possible and more of your customers will renew.

Just changing the 'stick' by making the licence more restrictive will not achieve what you want or expect.

Personally - renewing WAS a no brainer - come May when it's due; with the new licence terms I will either rely on my existing licence to carry on using 1.2.1 (MySQL) indefinitely, go 'non pro' (and maintain source code access through the GPL, and muddle through with aliases and quotas etc - I have managed my own postfix solution, so can just about cope) or go lifetime upgrade and maintain access to source through your concession above within the newer more restrictive licence.

The choice is now non trivial, and will involve me re-surveying the market place.

I want to support your project, it is technically excellent, and architecturally brilliant - but I won't be shoe horned into a situation where I go back to no code visibility - once the code is hidden then the quality degrades.  You may be the exception to the rule, but the rule is strong enough that I am slowly migrating our entire business across to open source or similar, so that I don't get lock in.

Anyway, just my input - I want iredmail to continue to grow, as the more successful an eco-system you develop, the better a product I benefit from.

All the best,

John

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Re: License terms update

so you want more users to buy the Pro-Version ... well maybe with the next Release smile

take a look at http://www.iredmail.org/forum/post13268.html#p13268
an "Update-Button" would be nice and this might be a way to get more people to purchase

18

Re: License terms update

Hi ZhangHuangbin,

I'm quite worried with the change of the licence. For us it's a deal breaker.

We just bought the lifetime licence and moved to redmailpro panel from our dedicated solution. We did it because maintaining on our own the application was costing us too much.

Our system is similar to the typical iRedMail solution, but only similar. To make the panel working, we modified it in quite a few places, i.e. in templates, controllers, ldap/ldif code, auth code. There are still quite a few modifications which are waiting for a spare time, i.e. dedicated logging/accounting solution not based on amavis.

All of this is done in such a manner, that we could use any patches/upgrades from mainline code.

If You will close the solution, we will still use the code we now have, but will not be able to use any updates.
What's more, we have several clients, which in near future will need dedicated panel (hosted on another server). Those installations also will have to be modified (slightly). If You will close the code, this will not be possible.

I think, that I do understand Yours reasons for the licance change, but I'm affraid that it will not work. I would never user Your product as a closed source.

19

Re: License terms update

Hi johnsjs, and dear all,

Thank you so much for your feedback, i think i made terrible mistake as you described:

1) Not make purchase/renew easier.
2) Worry too much about source code leak/stolen. I hope you guys forgive me about this, iRedAdmin-Pro is my primary income, i'm now a freelance.

I'm trying solving problems the opposite way. That's horrible. It's a shame. sad
I'm now preferring to continue providing source code for customers, just want to hear from more customers. I will announce the final decision before Jan 15.

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Re: License terms update

I'm confused about license in the case of 1 year license.

From the web page i've read:

"After license expired, it's allow to continue using existing iRedAdmin-Pro without further bug/security fixes, patches, and newer releases."

Does this change with your new license model ? meaning that if i upgrade to 1.6.3 ldap and after my license expire will it stop working ?

Thx.

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Re: License terms update

buzzzo wrote:

I'm confused about license in the case of 1 year license.

From the web page i've read:

"After license expired, it's allow to continue using existing iRedAdmin-Pro without further bug/security fixes, patches, and newer releases."

Does this change with your new license model ? meaning that if i upgrade to 1.6.3 ldap and after my license expire will it stop working ?

Thx.

after your license expired you are still allowed to use it on one server - but you will not get any updates for the admin panel

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Re: License terms update

ZhangHuangbin wrote:

2) Worry too much about source code leak/stolen. I hope you guys forgive me about this, iRedAdmin-Pro is my primary income, i'm now a freelance.

so: when more people see the code then you get more patches and feedback

any professional customer is willing to pay a reasonable price because knowing there will be updates that are needed for security and stability

and script kiddies who steal a license will have the problem - they will not get the updates so if they get "hacked" ... well ... let them go ask the officer:
"we used stolen software ... didn't get any updates ... got hacked ... what now?"

the harder you lock in your customers the more feedback you get on this

as you see - there are not only companies using your licensed software but also private users who are willing to pay for some greater comfort.

maybe you recalculate the annual fee:
one customer with annual license fee of 199$ ... or is it possible that you find three (3) or more people that will pay 99$ ??? Or 5, 6, 7 that are willing to pay 49$ ...
... some home users will - maybe you ask them? wink

Greetings

Mike

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Re: License terms update

Hi Zhang,

What decision have you made about the license?

Thank you in advance

24

Re: License terms update

Hello
Do you have news to tell us about your decision?
thank you

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Re: License terms update

Oops, so sorry about my late response.
As usual, full source code (Python, CSS/JS/HTML, etc) will be available after purchased.